WOEBOT

So if you are so against it why do you post music that is not your own? I mean even coming down a stream it can be recorded quite easily.

Honestly fluxblog has turned me on to stuff I would have never heard. Ever. Then I went and spent money. I mean where and when am I ever going to hear Wiley or some of the Kompakt stuff?

I live in LA one of the largest cities in the States if not the world and I still have to order stuff online. If not for some of these mp3s where would I hear it if it is not even available in the town I live in?

So if you are so against it why do you post music that is not your own? I mean even coming down a stream it can be recorded quite easily.

er...i'm trying to work on some "soft-focus" thing. also angry at all these mp3 blogs cos they're stealing my market share.

Artists have emailed Matt P I think and told him to take stuff down - I'd do it immediately if any did, but I wouldn't feel any great sense of shame or embarrassment. Maybe that means I have the morals of a sea urchin. I could muster all sorts of reasons why I think MP3 sharing is a good thing for everyone involved and also quite a few things about it that I don't like at all but I'm sure you've heard them all before.

I don't think in terms of respecting the artists - or any ethical consideration - there's any difference whatsoever between an MP3 blog and a private MP3 trading circle, except I suppose that an artist at least has a chance of finding out about the blogged MP3s and telling me to stop. (And also that the MP3s on the trading circles are likely to be of top quality and full albums, at least if the one I was on is anything to go by.)

The real difference of course is that the blogs are doing it in public. Personally I am nervous of publicity for exactly the reasons you suggest and am thinking of stopping or suspending PopNose before it all gets too big (i.e. within the next few days at this rate) because it was only meant as a nice little 'bonus level' on the Freaky Trigger site, a nook for regulars to find entertaining things in. I expected only about 50-100 downloads for each file. This was a bit naive of me so I'm prepared to class it as a too-successful experiment and shut it down, or at least be a bit more subtle about it.

to Tom
Hi Tom. I agree with you that there isn't an ethical distiction to be made between mp3 blogs and ftp clubs. However the ftp clubs seem to be more upfront about being swaggering rudebwoys, less wrapped up in the "we care about the artist" dialogue, and so (speaking personally) I'm less averse to them.

a couple of people have chastised me (gently) for talking about this as if it's some topic that we're all bored to sobs with hearing about. But actually I haven't seen a single discussion about in on the blogs in the past year and a half (cue someone telling me about them doing it). Maybe its a hot topic on ilm? On the contrary I think everyone is operating collectively within an agreed vow of silence on the topic (told you I woz paranoid!)

You know I have struggled not to take the high moral ground here. I mean (scoffs) I've had mp3s hosted on my sites since 2001. I've pretty regularily offered (har de har) "teaching packs" of mp3s. I've also been in touch with (scans memory) at least three artists who's mp3s I've had hosted. All "relatively" big names, and in each instant they've not asked me to take the mp3 down. On the other hand they've never come out and said "you're hosting one of my files, thank you" they've dodged the issue. I may too have the morals of a sea-urchin (ha!) but in each instance I've felt deeply uncomfortable. In two other instances I've hummed and ha'd and NOT put up an artist's mp3 when discussing them and *hey presto* they've emailed me! Nice feeling!

Jeez bro (shuffles nervously) right sorry to hear your thinking bout "Wiping the Nose". I genuinely would HATE to see anyone made an example of though. I'm less nervous about my RealPlayer feed for some reason. It's innate crapness might protect it (I mean for chist sake how many loonies would bother to record a stream!)

I'd add, in closing this epistle to Emperor Ewing, that if anyone is utterly infuriated about not being able to hear anything here (and they've gone to reasonable efforts to track it down), I will mail them a CD. I've been doing this for my peeps for ages. Just ask them.

I think my weariness was as much to do with the fact that it was 1 in the morning as that it's a talked-out subject. Back in the day (caution: misty eyes) every third NYLPM link seemed to be to some new submission in the 'great Napster debate' and it hasn't moved on too much since then. But you're right that the new improved blogosphere hasn't spent much time on the topic.

I think the people running MP3 blogs know full well that their audience are mostly rapacious sound-grabbers: I certainly do. The pro-artist stuff is I guess partly a function of doing things in public, partly a sincere feeling that sharing a single song is roughly equivalent to, say, quoting a published poem in full ('review purposes'). Does the 'good for artists' argument have any grounding in reality for MP3 blogs? I simply don't know, which is why I don't push it so much. The data isn't there - there's no telling how many downloads represent lost sales; how many represent gained future sales; and how many represent an economic 'non-event' (i.e. the downloader doesn't buy the record but would never have anyway). The vast majority are in the third category, of that I'm pretty sure: it's the balance between the other two that matters.

The (probable) cessation of PopNose is as much to do with bandwidth as potential legal problems - Matt P let me know that MP3blogs are going to go 'overground' in a biggish way very soon, and my little site can't cope with that. Also I had a terrific idea about what to do instead of it!

Hullo!

I see what you're saying about embarrassment, Matt - and there are plenty of similar reasons why I don't host any MP3s myself (I don't even like borrowing images) - but surely that's up to the individual hoster, not an issue for the broader world. Certainly if someone is going to put up cheeky MP3s they should think through what they're doing; but once they've done that, it's up to them isn't it? They have to stand by their decisions. If they then get embarrassed, maybe they should have a rethink about what they're doing, because they're clearly not comfortable with it.

Hosting copyrighted MP3s is, still, basically naughty, so if people do it, they've got to expect an occasional slap on the wrist, and they've got to be able to deal with that.

I've tried hard not to make this sound like a personal dig, Matt, because it's honestly not meant to be at all; I actually really appreciate the ethical wrangling and personal experiences that you're putting up for us all to see. It is a tricky issue, and there isn't an answer yet, but you're absolutely right that people need to keep talking about it, simply because it isn't a resolved issue, no matter what iStore etc. would want us to believe.

To Tim Rambler

Wow! You've nailed EXACTLY what I'm saying. Respek!

i spoke about the tehics of file-sharing a little re dancehall. i download quite a few mainstream R&B, hip-hop and pop singles to keep, the odd microhouse thing to check whether i want to buy it, rarely much dancehall coz i invariably have most of the stuff i can find.
the main thing for me is that as far as the new usher single goes or brandy and timbaland etc, they're gonna make a good few quid anyway and i don't think myself, being broke and all right now, downloading it will make an awful lot of difference - plus i buy enough music that i feel almost entitled to skim a little off the top now and again. this stuff is v mainstream, v much in the public domain, totally ubiquituous and that makes me feel little to no guilt.
however, i find this method of consuming music quite sick-making when done all the time, as per lots of the folks on ilm who seemingly only ever download stuff. it's bullshit and almost seems that they think they're some how different, above the rules the rest of the record-buying public has to work under.
this is particularly bad when you're a critic of any kind as it leads to a very attenuated experience of music, utterly removing you from the process, denuding the your relationship with it of any interaction with people, lessening the opportunities to build understanding.
when you bring issues of race/class into this equation, it's quite disturbing. that's why i flipped out when robin accused me of holding a conservative position re music, because middle-a bunch of class white guys evaluating dancehall/bhangra/grime etc from the safety of their suburban homes without any intention of even meeting a black/asian person is pretty distasteful. it doesn't foster any kind of understanding, either of music, cultures or people.
i mean one moron even said to me that "it hurt his heart" to buy records and that he thought his ideas about music were more honest than mine because he approched it with a "callous subjective ear". well, i can only reply: WANKER!
then there's the issue that these scenes/genres don't generate the same level of cash pop does, so if you're engaging with them in any way, then you should pay your dues, financially and in other ways. still, it is a thorny issue.

also i consider what matt does on fluxblog really useful. he's goty good ears and giving away one track can be a really good way to get people acquainted with music and want to find out more about an artist/label etc

I hear you Dave, even if I feel that my buying Dancehall/Desi/Grime has never succeded in giving me much insight into those communities (though you never know!).

We're definitely looking at a new sort of music consumer (THATS WHY ITS AN IMPORTANT TOPIC AGAIN), and while they may be the future they sure as hell need to sort their karma out.

If people are serious about try-before-you-buy then a RealAudio stream ought to suffice.

Thing is Dave can't you say that about ANY critic? I don't see how getting free records in the post, which I bet you've done, removes you from 'the process' or social interaction any less than downloading them?

"Is this worth hearing?"; "Is this worth paying for?" and "Is this worth being part of?" are three separate critical qns I think, talking about three separate relationships to music or art.

I've trialled music via RealAudio and via MP3 - the former is marvellously principled but the latter has the distinct advantage of allowing me to try out almost anything I want, when I want. I totally share your bad feelings about people who get EVERYTHING on download and keep it all but file-sharing has released two genies from the bottle - the 'free stuff' genie which needs to be re-corked for artists to get a good deal, but also the 'availability' genie which is quite separate. MP3s, unlike RealAudio streams at present, mostly remove the gatekeeper element (be it record companies or record collectors) that tell a listener what they can and can't listen to.

I do wonder how much of the distaste is high-minded and how much of it (by people who download or share themselves, anyway) is irritation at people who haven't, as Dave puts it, "paid their dues" being able to hear stuff the rest of us had to work a bit for. It's a note I've heard struck a few times on ILM too by garage or punk fans - as if putting the hours in down some horrible second-hand basement benefits the artist, or indeed anyone other than Brian at MVE. I totally see Dave's ethical argument - some unknown dancehall bod needs my cash more than I need his MP3, most probably - but I think there's a risk of it being entangled with what is essentially snobbery. I don't think an economic relationship between consumer, producer and product needs to have any kind of mystical overlay.

it's not "all" about the artists - i work fucking hard to try and make the best of the artists i deal with .

Alright Marcus keep your hair on! :-)

well, i am taking it to the nth degree obviously and glad you cold parse some sense into my pre-morning coffee garbled mess of a post, Tom! i mean, i feel absolutely no guilt about mp3s i've downloaded, didn't like and deleted, ones i've got of vinyl i already own so i can put them on cd or of records i simply can't find or can't afford. also some people can't get this stuff any other way and live in places (like rural norfolk) where interacting with people from other cultures is not even a consideration because other cultures don't really exist there. i like the idea that music is globally available, but i do find it uncomfortable when people won't go out and involve themselves (ESPECIALLY in black music) when it is on their doorstep. how many of ilm's "callous, subjective ears" (many of whom live bloody close) did i see when tanya stephens assassin and spragga were playing at ocean last year (which i put a post up about, seeing who wanted to go coz i had several *free* passes and two going begging) - none. you've got to wonder why. it's the detachment from the social aspect of music and music buying that gets to me. of course, people like tim finney can't get over to eski dances etc (incidentally, tim's one of the only people i think can write interestingly on sonics alone). i guess in a round about way i'm just saying, get out of the house, it's fun!

sorry that did sound a bit brutal .

it's naive to belive that music just springs out of the air when most of the mp3's posted anyway come from vinyl or cds that have been produced, mastered, a n'rd, paid for, any arrangements with artists or publishers sorted out,artwork done, distributed, promoted etc - there are a whole chain of events and a whole bunch of people involved in the production of a musical article avaliable for sale.

agreed that at a grass roots level are a really good thing
i've posted black devil here before and we try to have excerpts of tracks on our s(h)ite.

it's when whole albums are posted up by journalists 2 months before release on p2p sites that pisses me off -
its just such a joyless thing to do -
i want people to be excited about popping to the shops and get records when they come out.
Sustain that utter joy when you can't wait to get a record home.

of course the models are going to have to change soon - thats just the way - in a sense my comments above are really applying nostalga

stelfox- character,history and identity and community - all these things are often sadly lost when music becomes disconnected data - this is a problem not a solution- a crab-walk to homogeneity

Yeah I can see the 'engagement' thing - I'm not sure it's related though cos it would apply equally to someone who buys all their records online and the artists are definitely getting paid there. Going to see people live is a separate thing entirely, so is knowing and meeting the people who make the music or trying to make it yourself: those things really will give you a different understanding. I just don't think the mere act of physically buying a record imbues any understanding, which seemed to be where your post was leading. If that was the case then you'd gain more understanding of indie simply from buying your Franz Ferdinand album in Select-A-Disc not HMV, and I really don't think that's true!

to Tom

>gatekeeper element

isnt that exactly what the mp3 blog represents? a new kind of gatekeeper? I dont have a problem with that incidentally.

>paying dues buying records/snobbery

this seems a mildly "arse about tit" way of looking at it. what it seems to ignore is that the joy of hunting down music has at it's kernel the imagined wonder of what that music is like. this is REALLY fundamental isnt it? it's the same as (adopts french accent) the pleasure of seducing a beautiful woman. mp3 filesharing strips that away, it's quite like internet porn in that respect.

actually one angle about which i can share stelfox's opinion (i dont necessarily agree with the "cultural assimilation" angle) is that music is the fruit of philosophy and experience, and reducing music to a data stream is somewhat like (to extend the sex metaphor) sex without love.

...though of course that can be quite fun sometimes ;-)

i really don't like selectadisc! and i don't think p2p is *the* overarching problem in waht i've been talking about on boringly ongoing basis for a while now, it's not even a symptom, just another reason to make people stay locked in their ivory towers. my position re this stuff aint about bolstering my street cred, saying people need to do the work to get access to stuff or anything it's just about opening your attitudes as well as your ears when it comes to music. i'm all for populism, really, always have been.

incidentally i'm skint right now and have just got broadband so am actually doing quite a bit of downloading! only thing is it hurts my heart *not* to buy some of the stuff i'm really enjoying.

Yeah the MP3 blog is a gatekeeper too - though with PopNose I wanted more of a 'rummage round my attic' feel - I was talking about the differences between P2Ps as a way of finding music and other ways (MP3blogs/record company sites/streams/etc.). Should've made that clearer!

I've read a lot about the thrill of hunting down music and my attitude is, uh, 'whatever turns you on'. Clearly for some people it's a blast and a massive part of the enjoyment: I like the random element of rooting through some old pile of 7"s too, but mostly I found it a bit of a chore. I agree that P2P sharing removes the 'not knowing what you'll find' element and it would be nice to have that back in some way.

We're getting away from the economics and ethics of MP3 sharing here but this seems to me one of the genuinely new things about the phenomenon - the easy and instant availability of (nearly) ANYTHING. There's no other artform that this has even nearly happened to I don't think - it takes us into some very novel areas and it's made me realise how much of the stuff I valued or thought about music was actually to do with my attachments or antipathies to the rituals around it (seeking, finding, playing) not the thing itself.

The second-hand records / mp3 point is an interesting one: was it yesterday that you were pleased to find that the Nose's copy of "Tickle Tune" came from my vinyl rather than your mp3, Matt?

A few weeks ago I mentioned on ILM that I'd bought a particular LP, and liked it very much. A few days later I received a very friendly, grateful e-mail from the artist, who mentioned that no-one buys records anymore. In my reply, I neglected to say that my copy was a promo out of a dirty old box down at Cheapo's...

Although I've contributed a few bits to the Nose, I'm not set up to do the MP3 thing because I'm uncomfortable with this new, complete availability. I like to retain that element of chance which buy before you try brings.

>I've read a lot about the thrill of hunting down music and my attitude is, uh, 'whatever turns you on'.

You might be reducing my argument a bit there (like I'm reducing yours ha!) Isn't it the same essence which makes writing about music produce a dynamic (the tension between what is being described and the reader's distance from that), and one of music journalisms historical raison d'etres (how to encourage punter to get from a to b)

I'm no specialist on writing, but I feel think that I'd rather read a post at Blissblog and not get a download, than read some uninteresting jotting and download an okey-doke track at an mp3 blog (I havent been enticed to download much at all from them yet) And I DO download mp3s from time to time, though with considerably less frequency at the moment)

I have a sneaking feeling that despite all the wondrous multimedia ability of the web, certainly as its implemented at the moment, seductive writing (and hey, i'm no expert on it) might still be the internet's strongest card....

i'm unashamedly big on the rituals surrounding record shopping. it's how i really got to know london and, for that matter, new york and san francisco. i like getting coffee at the same places after wards and looking over my purchases, taking in the sights, talking to the guys behind the counter (in some cases!). it's definitely a case of whatever turns you on. i guess i just don't want p2p to be yet another reason for people to barricade themselves into their own little worlds, never to venture out. anyway, i'm not gonna be too sanctimonious about this. but when dealing with smaller scenes it's worth people bearing in mind that losing a couple of hundred sales can make the difference between a release being viable and not. best thing i can say is that if people download and *love* stuff, they really should buy it.

of course mp3 blogs are the new gatekeepers, but as for p2p, i think that has the same rummaging around old 7" boxes feel, the sheer range of stuff out there means you can get a million unknown things.

i have had about 4 or 5 mps on my site during the last year or so, all have been out of print, all are unlikely to ever come back into print, in any form. i don't think i'd be comfortable with putting up available stuff so much

however, at the moment, i am doing just that with slsk, alongside lost stuff. so how is that different? even if i am primarily downloading stuff i already have on cd/vinyl at parents, its still available for others to download from me isnt it?

ironically, the ethics of p2p which are espoused on ilm ("if they dont share, i ban") are the exact opposte of the ethics about mp3s in general.

but even if you only share within a close circle, its going to get out from there isnt it, as they share them further, except you can be pious, knowing it was indirect?

i dont know...

In *complete* agreement with comrade Stelfox about dancehall, and getting out of the house, etc. It simply isn't true to say that

"I'm not sure it's related though cos it would apply equally to someone who buys all their records online and the artists are definitely getting paid there."

Navigating the ritual, hierarchy and business of specialist reggae shops is an enlightening experience, and shopping in them goes some way to ensure the continuation of the reggae community both in London (or wherever) and in JA.

Even when you go to Selectadisc you can buy fanzines, flyers etc... you don't get that in HMV really.

oh yeah, and Dave, drop me an email next time you get some free passes, mate :-)

I only have this to say: I LOVE THE COLORS! thank you.

Perhaps I'm a bit dense, but I'm not certain whether your post is mocking me or just bein' a bit snarky (though seeing as my name follows the phrase "extremely lame", I'm inclined to presume the former). Regardless, it's attracting a ton of response at me site, so... sew buttons. They tell me any publicity is good publicity if they spell your name right. You did spell my name right, right?

Anyway, in response (and apologies in advance for both my loggorhea, my buckshot spray (lack of) debating style and a bit of flowery bullshit):

FWIW, although I appreciate the nod, I don't think I'm at all "high profiling" (my daily circulation is roughly 1% of Modern Ferret Magazine; so I've a bit to go afore I reach Murdoch hype levels). Musicblogging is still totally an underground activity, because (mostly) the INTERNET is still an underground activity. Given all that goes on in this huge open air bazaar, no matter how many people find their way on here, there's always more nooks and crannies in this tardis to be hidden away in. No doubt some enterprising journalist or music exec WILL discover the phenom in short order, but the wave is still cresting. I don't think any of us have seen any REAL exposure yet.

I _wouldn't_ apologize for coming off evangelical, though; not when it comes to music. I hail from a family where music was ALWAYS on and every moment was soundtracked. Music is roughly as important to me as food. At the moment, musicblogging strikes me as a brandnew, proletariat owned and operated method to distribute music internationally to anyone regardless of social or economic status with access to their library/internetpub/schoolcomputer/whatever.

With music comes culture, new ideas, new ways of appreciating and seeing the world. "Dark was the night, cold was the ground" looks like the heart of a man; "smells like teen" is ALWAYS gonna tap into an interior fifteen year old; "naima" sounds like love. Songs are art, but they're also shared communication; virals that can facilitate understanding and connection between people in a way that few other things can. Music is at least as important to mankind as politics, if not more. Certainly what I was MOST drawn to in your post was the point that "I do think the argument that being exposed to music you wouldn't normally come across can turn you on to it." THAT is the crux of the issue to me. If a kid in Utah hears "strange fruit" for the first time and it causes him to question his concepts of race; if a suicidal woman in Portugal finds stumbles on a susana baca track that speaks to her; if a young Bronx thug unearths a marvin gaye track that sets him on the path to learning the flue; if a Williamsburg hipster becomes so enamored of a japanese swing band in the thirties that he gives better service at his coffee bar: these things make musicblogging worthwhile and are a hundred times more unlikely to occur without it.

I really hope that the people who dl stuff from me aren't "rapacious sound-grabbers" as Tom puts it. As my circulation has started to mellow, I think a lot of that type have seen grabbed and gone and recognized that I'm not what they're looking for. They're not what I'm looking for either. I'm looking to actually reach people, not help fill up their hard drives.

Full disclosure: I listen to EVERY track I download numerous times. This DOES mean I have a heavy backlog (I'm backed up to March 3rd right now) but I try not to take simply for the sake of accumulation. I'm in it to learn.

At no other time in history has so much information and art been available to so many people. We've finally remade The Library of Alexandria but instead of glorifying, exploiting and maximizing its potential; we get frightened that it's gonna cause an artistic economic collapse. I simply don't believe that posting music online is damaging record sales. Some people WANT the concrete item, the liners, the disc, the album art and they're GOING to buy it regardless. Old arguments RE: bottled water, genie's out of the lamp, artists make most of their profit performing live anyway, etc still apply; but add to that this old chestnut lifted from a former cop: "a locked door only keeps an honest man out". People who rely exclusively on mp3s for music, as you suggest "may be practically the norm" AREN'T going to buy CD's regardless, they'll dub copies of their friends mixes. Most of my friends did that; didn't yours?

If anything (to paraphrase my argument over at So This Is Love), it's a numbers game. You host two songs by your hot new artist and 1,000 people download it who never would've heard of the guy otherwise and three buy the music. Well, there's three who just bought the music. Hosting costs are virtually insignificant, so I only see benefit and not harm.

Now Diego's response to that, that we somehow "own the music" doesn't ring true to me. If I tape the song off the radio, do I own the music? If I dub it from a friend (and incidentally, where was all this outrage when the mixtape went aboveground)? If I tape it off MTV (they do broadcast music don't they)? "Owning" music is like owning an idea; the real issue is profit, as in "does my listening to this music profit or detriment the artist"? I'd argue it always profits and never causes detriment.

Last note on profit: my average writing, research, compilation and edit time for the posts I'm putting up at th' Hut for the past two weeks is roughly four hours.
Now:
1) that is sad.
2) I'm PAYING for the privilege to host that stuff, not GETTING paid, and
3) THAT'S OKAY. I'm not doing this to make money, I'm doing it because I find it artistically (and yeah, narcissistically) rewarding. So do most artists, at least the ones worth a damn. Financial reward is great, lord knows I'll take whatever I can get; but it's not my motivating factor. Suggesting that music sharing damages the artist by distributing their work without compensation is nonsensical to me. For most artists distribution IS compensation. This may be naive, but as recording and production costs start to equal the price of a copy of garageband, it makes more and more sense; besides which, distribution should EVENTUALLY lead to financial profit (see: 50 cent) so biting the hand that fed you seems nuts to me.

Having said ALL that, my ethical considerations as I see them are to cover two bases: watch my own ass and don't offend the artist. The _instant_ I recieve a "please don't post this" I have every intention of taking the offending track (or post) down. As for how "fucking embarrassing" it would be for an artist to contact me to ask to have something taken down? Not very. We'd share different views on a subject that we both have cause to be passionate about. That seems reasonable.

The idea of streaming audio is a good one and not one that I'd considered. My only caveat there is that you're limited to wherever the computer is. Much of the music I listen to is situation and location specific; i.e., I would never want to listen to "lucky star" (the jaxx version, not the madonna) anywhere but the gym or while having sex and I wouldn't enjoy listening to ol' dirty at a place of business. Still, as computers get smaller and wifi gets bigger, streams might be the right wave to ride. I is intrigued.

YES, I'm being a tetch disingenous as regards draconian American copyright law and YES I'm guilty of being an idealist. So sue me. Actually, don't please. I'm poor and pretty and wouldn't do well in jail. Hold the syrup.

More (and better and more articulate) arguments on the subject can be found at Downhill Battle.

On the personal tip, I should note that I'm not familiar with your site (or you) at all so I don't know whether or not these missives are in keeping with a point that you've been considering on here for a long time and I'm just crashing the party late on this topic.

I will be reading you in the future, though.

I also realize that I'm painting a big target on my forehead by posting this response, but I don't mind. An open debate on these topics can only benefit everyone involved. As such, I'm posting this response over at my site as well.

Lastly I don't mean to suggest that I haven't noticed that the head of your argument is, essentially, watch your ass because you're treading on thin ice.

Point taken, my argument would be that where we're going WARRANTS treading on thin ice. It's a risk worth taking.

re. library of alexandria - sum total of human knowledge on the internet...yes please...altruism & common advancement must be the watchwords of the 21st century...copyright & its issues seem to be obstacles to this...& it is glaringly apparent that current capitalist models do not take these factors into account...thank you forksclovetofu